Citizen: United States Politics: Conservative Republican Religion: Roman Catholic I’d Rather Be: In New Zealand
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Friday, October 20, 2006 at 02:19PM Hundreds of new recruits in the Army's Basic Training worship every week at this gymnasium. Below are soldiers kneeling to pray after receiving communion.
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Reader Comments (93)
Jason, you're right. We should have more secularists join the military. We know what a success they have been to the armed forces. Abu Ghraib, anyone?
Everyone who loves and understands the US Constitution should be happy about this.
J.S.
Either way its a reference to faith, so there goes your "secular democracy" theory.
"And are you serious to blame Abu Ghraib on secularism?"
They sure as hell weren't Christians.
"Of course I believe in freedom of religion, but also freedom FROM religion so please make sure you understand that too."
You mean the Consitution that DOESN'T say "freedom from religion"? There is nothing to protect you from religion. Unless you are forced against your will to practice a particular religion, the establishment clause is not violated. You have to tolerate the faiths of others, and the only protection you have from that is in your own home. Those are the facts and you'll simply have to death with it.
"and given the lame excuses coming from the Right for all your abysmal failures that is saying a lot."
Wow, its like the same debate on every thread. You guys must get your opinions faxed to you from the DNC every morning or something. Look, we all know you have no alternative to our foreign policy, at least not any that America will get behind.
Because revisionists have been busy with the history of our founding, does not change the reality of what actually took place. It's very difficult to twist the actual words of those involved. The revisionist deception is to ignore those words and write interpretations instead. Young people like you should seek the truth and then base an opinion upon the reality of that truth. Do not let someone with an agenda lead you down a preconceived path.
Thank you Madison, thank you Jefferson, I owe you big time. And yes, I do have protection from religion in the Consitution because the government is forbidden from establishing any religion- yes, I have to put up with all of the annoying references to fairy tales I see everywhere but I can handle that- it's no more annoying than Britney Spears- but fortunately,you have no right to impose your religious views on anyone.
And for those who think Nature's God means something religious thanks for the comedy- that was unexpected- do you realize how foolish that makes you sound? Do you have any idea how the theory of natural law repudiates Christian literalism?
J.S.
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Ah, the sweet sounds of secular humanism free of religious lunacy....music to my ears....
1787
You're missing the whole point. Why did the Brits come to America in the first place? To escape religious persecution; for religious freedom. That theme is intermingled throughout the Declaration of Independence and Constitution. That's why the 1st Amendment, for example, states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". There was to be no repeat in America of the British monarch imposing its state run religion on individuals. Of course the United States doesn't do this, but the 1st Amendment is meant to safeguard the church from the state and to ensure religous freedom.
There's no shame in admitting that America was founded on Christian principles. Even if you aren't happy about that and want America to be pagan (not saying you do, just making a point), as Dr. Phil says, "You can't change what you don't acknowledge." It is what it is.
Calm down, man! I wasn't impugning your understanding of the Constitution. The Constitution and Declaration of Independence will not have references to Christianity. That would defeat the purpose. But there are references to "God", "Creator", etc. This is certainly a Christian principle: free choice. Christianity doesn't promote forced conversions.
Most of the founding fathers were either deists or Christians. That shouldn't upset anyone. It is what it is.
Absolutely, the offenses of Abu Ghraib were committed by people engaging in non-Christian behavior (although I wonder if you'd be as hard on Muslims who acted in a worse manner for years at Abu Ghraib during the Saddam years... in fact, Iraqi prisoners say they prefer US troops at Abu Ghraib to Iraqi guards). It wasn't exactly Christian practices that led to the abuse of the prisoners, insubordination by the soldier and the knocking up of the little soldier lady. Nope, you won't find any "thou shalts" under those categories in the Bible. Sorry.
Abysmal failures in Iraq, eh? Let me ask you this: when was the last time an Iraqi thanked either a Democrat or a U.N. worker? We know hundreds of soldiers who have been thanked by Iraqis for this Republican "failure". It's a good thing we're doing it for them and not for you. There's compassion for you; let's let Saddam continue to murder and rape his own people while he races with Iran and N. Korea (the axis of evil) to acquire WMD. 2 of the 3 now have them.
This comment was interesting:
"we are trying to get the Iraqis to embrace secular liberal principles- I know it's hard for people like you to accept that, but dems the facts mam."
My husband is in the Chaplain's Corps (he's enlisted, not an officer so he's not a chaplain) and that really isn't true. While I cannot go into much detail, suffice to say that in Baghdad SFC Proctor met over the course of a year with Muslim Clerics, Imams and Catholic priests and bishops, as well as the early Iraqi government leaders, to describe and instruct them about the direction their democracy should take if it is to be successful. It did NOT include secularism, but equality, which again is a religious attribute.
An Iraqi priest friend of ours called from Baghdad while the interim government was drafting their Constitution. He asked me to help urge the government to include provisions for religious freedom for all.... which is what happened. Secular governments wouldn't address religious freedom and expression, would it?
Finally, it is "people like us" that continues to promote and ensure freedom to or not to worship in America. We want equality for all; sounds like you want to do away with religios expression altogether (unless it's Hindu, Muslim, Wiccan, etc.). "We" are not forcing religion down anyone's throat, just asking that ours be respected. Or is freedom of speech and religion only for non-Christians? What's this Christianphobia? We're pushing for a state religion? Where did anyone say that? The founding fathers, sir, are on our side.
Your hypersensitivity against religion is exactly the reason we need the 1st Amendment. Thank God you weren't a founding father. Amen.
It is quite apparent that the indoctrination you are undergoing is quite effective. Your refusal to examine evidence of an opposing position is in contravention to good critical thinking.
J.S.
Please feel free to explain on every level the failures in Iraq of this adminstration.
Other than my freedom to exercise it.
"yes, I have to put up with all of the annoying references to fairy tales I see everywhere but I can handle that- it's no more annoying than Britney Spears- but fortunately,you have no right to impose your religious views on anyone."
So explain to me how the above photograph is you or anyone else being imposed on with religious views. You can't, which makes every remark you've posted here so far totally irrelevant.
"And for those who think Nature's God means something religious thanks for the comedy"
Keyword: God. Now dance rabbit. Show me how you dance around so that "God" doesn't mean "God". Especially when Jefferson (the guy you admire) adamantly claimed that our natural rights came from God, our Creator.
I too, would love to hear about these "failures" you speak of.
History, if written honestly, and not by a bunch of liberal asshats, will treat Bush as a Hero and Clinton as a numbskull. Clinton will also go down as a womanizer. It surprises me today that he was capable of putting any policies into place, no matter how defunct they were, with Lowinski kneeling in the Oval Office. Perhaps Clinton needs to be given credit for being multi-tasked.
"Criminal Incompentance" does not apply to President Bush... "Criminal Incompetance" applies to many, but not to our president who is doing his ever-level best to save your butt, Jason... even though you truly do not deserve it. Your statement that you respect the military and wish for their safety does not ring true. Most of the military respects President Bush as their Commander in Chief. If you disrespect him, you disrespect them, pure and simple.
Isn't it easy to sit in your lovely little living room, or apartment, or office, or wherever you are, not serving this country in any capacity but to take from it, and put down the traditions that give you the right to do that in the first place? While you do that you are disrespectul and attack Amy. She is a true patriot! Her husband is a true patriot, and he serves this country and mandkind as such. What are you? What stars do you have in your crown? Tell us about it, What do you give to this country? Seriously, I would really like to know.
Your American "Founding fathers" didn't write up a constitution so that you all could sit on their laurels and bask in glory. Perhaps, they'd find it rather humorous that you all want to uphold (WORD for WORD), something that was written centuries ago, as LAW, without any sort of critical reasoning or revisions. Ahh, the humor in blind faith.
I hate to tell you this, but you sound like someone who has been completely brainwashed by the liberal left. I would be willing to believe that you have no respect for the American Flag; don't attend church on a regular basis, and you probably think anyone who does so is stupid.
"Blind Faith" in God is required. If you have missed that, pumpkin, you've missed the whole show. It's sad. I will pray for you.
John Adams
"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."
James Madison
This criticism isn't limited to non-believers.
Now, before you spout off any more about the meanings of the constitution, perhaps you would be so kind as to provide some quotes from founding fathers that provide for the secular only basis for the constitution; that they clearly intended for government to be wholely separated from religion.
Mavic, there is a structured process under which our constitution is amended which requires a majority of the States to agree with a congressionally proposed amendment; it doesn’t happen on a whim.
It is the mere fact that our constitution is centuries old and is just as viable and applicable today as yesterday that makes America the envy of the world.
http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/revolution/mayflower.htm
"In the name of God, Amen. We, whose names are underwritten, the Loyal Subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord, King James, by the Grace of God, of England, France and Ireland, King, Defender of the Faith, e&. Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the Christian Faith, and the Honour of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia; do by these presents, solemnly and mutually in the Presence of God and one of another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil Body Politick, for our better Ordering and Preservation, and Furtherance of the Ends aforesaid; And by Virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and frame, such just and equal Laws, Ordinances, Acts, Constitutions and Offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the General good of the Colony; unto which we promise all due submission and obedience. In Witness whereof we have hereunto subscribed our names at Cape Cod the eleventh of November, in the Reign of our Sovereign Lord, King James of England, France and Ireland, the eighteenth, and of Scotland the fifty-fourth. Anno Domini, 1620."
There followed the signatures of 41 of the 102 passengers, 37 of whom were Separatists fleeing religious persecution in Europe. This compact established the first basis in the new world for written laws. Half of the colony failed to survive the first winter, but the remainder lived on and prospered.
New England Confederation of 1643:
This first American experiment in federation, written in 1643, stated that the one single aim of the American colonies was “to advance the Kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to enjoy the liberties of the Gospel thereof in purities and peace.…”
Trinity Decision of the U.S. Supreme Court:
In 1892, the Court completed a 10-year examination of all of the documentation, which amounted to thousands of pages, concerning our founding. They came to a unanimous conclusion that “These…add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation….”
FAMOUS EARLY AMERICANS:
John Quincy Adams:
President of the U.S. and one of the great lights in the early days of this country, said, “The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity.”
George Washington:
First President and Father of our Country, has often been called a deist. A deist is defined as one who believes God created the world and then went on a long journey, leaving it to wind down on its own. Yet the evidence shows Washington was a devout Christian who arose at 4:00 every morning and spent an hour on his knees praying before an open Bible. In the evenings he dismissed himself from friends and family at 9:00 and returned to that same room, again kneeling before an open Bible in prayer. The idea that he would spend 2 hours every day praying to an absentee God is utterly ridiculous. In his Farewell Address he said this: “Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, Religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great Pillars of human happiness….” According to Wash-ington, no atheist was a patriot! And he added, “reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.” Far from the popular idea that we can have morality without religion, Washington knew better and warned against it in his last words to the nation.
Thomas Jefferson:
President, scientist, and author of the Declaration of Independence, he is the Founder who is said to have included the concept of “separation of church and state” in the Constitution. Yet no one seems to be able to find it. Well, it is found in article 52 of the Constitution…of the former Soviet Union! It is not in the U.S. Constitution at all! The phrase comes from his personal letter to the Danbury Baptists in Connecticut. It was virtually unheard of until 1947 when an ACLU lawyer by the name of Leo Pfeffer used it in his response to the Everson decision. But, in fact, the curator of the Library of Congress states that Jefferson, one of only two of the signers of the Declaration who wasn’t undeniably Christian, went through a conversion of sorts in the 1790s. He changed his views markedly and supported positions that his opponents had previously supported. Among other actions, while serving as both president and Superintendent of Washington D.C. schools, he required only two texts: the Bible and Watts Hymnal. Such commitment to use two clearly religious texts is hardly typical of the “separation of church and state” which is so often attributed to him.
Congress:
The largest congregation in America at one time was meeting in, of all places, the House of Representatives. Weekly worship services once boasted an attendance of 2,000. These services took place the very week that Congress passed the 14th Amendment, which ACLU lawyers claim prohibits public religious observances! Not only that, but at one time, when there was a shortage of Bibles, Congress voted not only to distribute them, but to pay the printing costs. And it cannot be forgotten that Congress has appointed chaplains for the House and Senate throughout history. What many people don’t know is that the colonial military criminalized blasphemy and profanity with a sentence of 30 lashes. Washington believed that the cause of our country was in the hands of the Lord. How could we expect Him to grant us victory if we offend Him by allowing blasphemy among our forces?
Founding Generations Syllogism:
52 of our 54 signers of the Declaration were undeniably Christians. Their lives have been minutely examined, and it has been found that of the 54, 27 had a theological education, one translated and published a Bible, and another became the first president of the American Bible Society. Not only that, the first Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, John Jay, was also president of the American Bible Society.
The only fairy tale being peddled here is the myth that the framers envisioned a secular government with a bizzare interpretation of the 1st Amendment to garauntee "freedom from religion" instead of freedom OF religion. ALL the seminal documents condemn your revisionist position and the Framers are on record pledging loyalty to the God and Father of Jesus Christ. In fact, the Declaration of Independence posits the thesis that rights come from God, not governments, and the attempt to dismiss God from the equation is to make American democracy illegal!
At the founding of America there were a plethora of religions that all congregated into sections in many different states. Many people get confused thinking that Christianity was the only one, which makes their argument stronger in supporting no religion in society. However, this was never the case. The major Protestant church going public as we think of American tradition today didn’t begin until well after fifty-years of the ratifying of the Constitution. People think it started at the beginning, which has become a myth.
It was only Thomas Jefferson in a letter that ‘suggested’ a “freedom from religion” and was not voted on, because he knew most people were religious in America anyway, which illustrated it would never have made it to the Constitution as law. The people of the states had to ratify the Constitution (A major step in founding U.S.A.), and one of their main criteria was freedom (to pursue) of religion wherever they saw fit.
There were not "many religions" as Christianity was/is the dominant religion in America. There was a smattering of Jews and of course Native American Tradition, but by and large the religion of America was Christian. Even the phrase "Judeo-Christian" is a condescension. It is an oft committed error to ascribe a Baptist and Methodist as being "two different religions" when in fact they are two denominations within the Christian religion. Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Taoism, ect... are different religions.
When we speak of religious values that inform American ethics and jurisprudence, we are almost exclusively drawing from Christian tradition.
The Europeans are doing a great job of showing the world what happens when secularists drive faith from public life: there is nothing but brute force and relativism to take its place. Of course, Europe will again be religious within a generation, but it will be Muslim.
I understand the tension between sects, denominations, movements and cults. Protestant organizational polity was a disaster when it came to forming any kind of confederation between competing groups. That left many decisions to the arm of the state, as it is in other internicine religious conflicts.
I was pointing out the distinction between different religions (Islam vs Christianity) as opposed to different sub-sects within a common religion (Baptist vs Methodist). English Common Law, American Consitutional jurisprudence, and especially State-level law have been overwhelmingly drawn from Christian sources - I believe that much is beyond reasonable discussion. The secular-progressives (SPs) would have us believe the Framers envisioned religion as some uncontainable tinderbox that must be radically restricted because of its possible use as a coercive element in government - which our nation has never seen. The idea also that our government was formed irreligiously, or with only secular influences is easily disprovable. The point I was making with you is that our particular form of pluralism was founded on the CHRISTIAN principle of tolerance, NOT the modern PC version. Without Christian tolerance, we would quickly descend into a European-styled relativistic society with one huge distinction: the SECOND Amendment. Our citizens are armed to the teeth and in lieu of a civil religion rallying Americans to common loyalties and transcendant national values, our nation could be a volatile chaotic battlefield.
There IS a civil religion in America, while not codified, it is the glue that holds our nation together (seeing we are not an ethnicity but a nation of immigrants pledging fealty to an ideal). Any action aimed at dismantling the American civil religion (based on Christian sources from all denominations) is a threat to American unity, political viability, and heritage. We already fought a bloody civil war to preserve this heritage; the ALCU and its proponents would have an even more devastating conflict were they to succeed in outlawing the American Civil religion.
Indeed, I'm inclined to agree with Jason. Thank you Madison.
ROFL! Well, you might know how to read the constitution but you certainly don't UNDERSTAND the founding fathers their lives, and their take on "religion." Ever hear of the Northwest Ordinance of 1787? I suggest you read it. Here is a quote from article 3:
ART. 3. "Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged." By the way, can you guess WHAT book was to be the main book used in these schools?
I also suggest you read speeches from the era, from SEVERAL of the founding fathers. The problem with individuals such as yourself is that you seem to forget that OUR government simply states that no ONE religion will be ABOVE another. It is MY opinion (and if one reads historical documents of the era, one can clearly see this) that the "founding fathers" clearly LIVED a life that espoused their religious ideals, which of course dictated the morality of the day. Look around you, look at the morals we see today. CLEARLY something has gone amiss, gee I wonder what it could be???
October 20, 2006 | Mark Krauss
Mark, While I am going to agree wholeheartedly with your thoughts on the founding fathers, I do have to say one must be careful when using these websites and their "quotes". If one is going to use quotes you have to be 100% on the sources. Some of the "quotes" this site uses are sketchy at best with it's sources, suggesting ulterior motive. With proper research there is no need for a site to use quotes without being authenticated. It only makes the site "less" reliable IMHO.
You're absolutely correct.
Not many of Washington's private letters indicated a particularly devout Christian faith... but they also *never even once* indicated any leanings towards athiesm, deism or anything else. Many historians -- those without an agenda anyway -- simply believe he was a man who simply had his faith but wasn't particularly outspoken about it. It was just understood that he was a Christian. He did pay a lot of respect to "religion" however. I'd be interested to know if he even understood "religion" apart from "Christianity" (ie, the two words had the same meaning for him). If he didn't, many of his famous quotes and letters would take on a completely new tone.
I think it would be a mistake to say "the Founding Fathers were all Christians"... but it would be ignorance to the point of foolishness to say that none of them were and that religious principles (chiefly -- and likely exclusively -- those understood in the Christian faith) weren't the primary guiding principles for the majority of them.
I'm actually beginning to question Ben Franklin's faith. For a supposed deist, he sure did toss a lot of Bible references around.
Agreed.
Nevermind, I just found a prayer written by George Washington. Beyond being fascinatingly eloquent, there's no possible way to mistake this as anything besides a Christian's prayer!
Military personnel are not exempt from its protection. They are free to worship (or not) as their conscience leads them. People like Jason wish to exempt everybody from it by pretending it does not exist by throwing up the smoke screen of specific terms that are absent from the documents. While it does not specifically mention "Christianity", "church", etc, those appellations are all covered by the general term "religion". The Constitution was deliberately vague about religion because specificity could be construed as "establishment"
Ahh ... when faced with truth and lack of knowledge, those with little armament and conviction say, "Well, you suck!" and then run.
When will they ever learn?
Ha! You're all so good, and so very right! A nice Sunday read in the comments of Amy's blog ... :)
It would be funny if it weren't so tragic.
This is from a televised interview by David Frost with Billy Graham on May 30, 1997.
David Frost: So is this still a Christian Country?
Billy Graham: No! We're not a Christian Country. We've never been a Christian Country. We're a secular Country, by our Constitution. In which Christians live and which many Christians have a voice. But we're not a Christian Country.
I’ve read some, but not all of the comments on this post so forgive me if this was already covered, but it seems odd that it started with a picture of soldiers praying (one which I found quite inspiring). Chaplains are tremendously important to soldiers and I cannot see how this is an “establishment” issue. I have nothing but high praise and deep respect for military chaplains.
Those who argue that the United States is a Christian nation are hard-pressed to explain why our founders went out of their way to make sure that our founding document, the U.S. Constitution, lacks any mention whatsoever of God, church, the Bible, or Jesus. It is inconceivable that men who put so much time into crafting the Constitution would so explicitly and thoroughly steer clear of religious justifications for their beliefs in any way if they wanted to convey some particularly religious status to our nation.
Perhaps even more striking, if we go back a few years before the Constitution to the Declaration of Independence, there is even greater, and much less publicized proof, that not only did the Founders reject any notion of the United States as a Christian Nation, but they explicitly rejected any notion of today’s view of the Christian god.
Many Christians like to cite this sentence in the second paragraph of the Declaration of Independence:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
These Christians run into serious difficulty trying to explain why the signers of the Declaration used the ambiguous word “Creator”, which is consistent with any deistic interpretation of the origins of life and is not exclusively Christian, but even more importantly, they never quote what comes in the very first paragraph even though the word “God” is used:
When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. (Highlighting mine.)
Not only did the authors put the “Laws of Nature” as a justification for independence before the word “God” they explicitly state that God is subservient to Nature! When I first read this I was astonished since this is so embarrassing to the proponents of the Christian Nation myth, and I was surprised that it hadn’t gotten more press.
I could spend pages more discussing the historic views of “Natural Law” philosophy that animated and motivated many of the Founding Fathers, and how the majority of them held deistic beliefs that were more consistent with modern forms of agnosticism than anything approaching the assertions made by many modern-day Christians. And of course, some religious people could throw back a few cherry-picked religious quotes from some of the Founding Fathers that point to a greater degree of religiosity than is found in our founding documents.
Fortunately, none of this is necessary.
In both the U.S. Constitution, and even more strongly in the Declaration of Independence, the Founding Fathers explicitly rejected any notion that our nation is based on the tenets of Christianity and the Bible. I can only shudder at the theocracy we would live under if the Founders had given religious literalists any opening whatsoever. Fortunately, they didn’t and for that I am ever grateful.
J.S.
On the opposite spectrum Washington was ‘very’ religious, prayed in the field everyday to keep troop moral up, and presided in the Constitutional formation, even if it was commentary and oversight.
“deistic beliefs that were more consistent with modern forms of agnosticism”
Actually deism believes that only ‘one’ supreme power controls or semi-controls ( natural laws) the universe. Agnosticism is a passion-doubting of an existence of god - two different things all together. Deism was fad at the time, and many used clubs to foment ancient sacred schools, in the arts of ancient societies, such as Egypt’s pantheon of many gods ( of course with their twist to it). Regardless of pluralism, a religion is a religion. This is still the topic. The Constitution doesn’t say there will be no religion. However, if Jefferson took a shot, like Washington clearly had the chance with the overwhelming public sentiment for his possible kingship, Jefferson could have became the first American monarch and outlawed religion – in which he surely would have been quickly assassinated.