Amy Proctor

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« Media Ignores Bush Exoneration | Main | US Senators Fail US Ally, UAE »
Saturday
11Mar2006

"Putting the Rights of Adults Over the Needs of Children"

Catholic Charities Archdiocese of Boston has closed its adoption agency in Massachusetts this week because of a state law requiring the agency to place children in same-sex households.  A statement from Father J. Bryan Hehir, president of Catholic Charities, said:

"The world was very different when (Catholic) Charities began this ministry at the threshold of the 20th-century. The world changed often and we adapted the ministry to meet changing times and needs. At all times we sought to place the welfare of children at the heart of our work.

"But now, we have encountered a dilemma we cannot resolve. In spite of much effort and analysis, Catholic Charities of Boston finds that it cannot reconcile the teaching of the church, which guides our work, and the statutes and regulations of the commonwealth. The issue is adoption to same-sex couples, and we realize that for many it is a sensitive, deeply felt issue of conscience.

"Catholic Charities in the United States is an agency exercising constitutionally guaranteed religious freedom that has stepped forward to provide placement for orphaned children.

"Sadly, we have come to a moment when Catholic Charities in the Archdiocese of Boston must withdraw from the work of adoptions, in order to exercise (that) religious freedom.”

Republican Governor Mitt Romney of Massachusetts said he planned to file a bill that would allow religious organizations to seek an exemption from the state’s anti-discrimination laws to provide adoption services.  "This is a sad day for neglected and abandoned children," Romney said in a statement. "It’s a mistake for our laws to put the rights of adults over the needs of children.

The bishops of the four Catholic dioceses in Massachusetts said in a Feb. 28 statement that if Catholic agencies were required to help same-sex couples adopt children in violation of church teaching prohibiting the practice it would present "a serious pastoral problem" and threaten religious freedom.

"We are asking the commonwealth to respect the constitutional guarantee of religious freedom and allow the Catholic Church to continue serving children in need of adoption without violating the tenets of our faith," the bishops said.

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References (2)

References allow you to track sources for this article, as well as articles that were written in response to this article.
  • Response
    Overall, and probably like most folks with a protestant background,  my impression of the Catholic church has never been extremely favorable.  The seemingly neverending discovery of case after case of child molestation by...
  • Response
    Response: This is just SICK!
    Ms Underestimated's blog posted "manual" for do it yourself abortion for the women of South Dakota. She did it to protest it. A "doctor" who treats themself only has a fool for a patient.I do not believe in abortion, but in adoption. The adoption l

Reader Comments (56)

This is very sad and I agree with you that the state is putting the rights of adults over the needs of children. I volunteer with an organization that works with abused and neglected children. I know this is stating the obvious but the best thing you can do for them is to place them in a safe and loving home as soon as possible. It's sad that the result of this law is that the Catholic Church in MA can no longer help these children find a new home.
March 11, 2006 | Unregistered CommenterSilke
Hello Amy,

Is Massachussetts a sorry example of a state, or what? Kerry and Kennedy as Senators. Same-sex marriage. Now adoptions to same-sex couples. ARRRRGGGGHHHH!! It makes me just want to scream... (or maybe you already picked up on that).

Regards...
March 11, 2006 | Registered CommenterHawkeye
We call the genocide of the unborn "choice" and "a civil right", so the move by the state of Massachusetts does not really surprise me. Religious freedom - not to mention right and wrong and what's best for the children - has been subordinated to the will of a narrow-minded few. Political Correctness is a jealous god indeed.
March 11, 2006 | Unregistered CommenterMwalimu Daudi
Next thing ya know, they'll make the church accountable to the criminal justice system. Where will it end, with the Pope under indictment? Ah, one can dream.....

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/
0,6903,1469055,00.html
March 11, 2006 | Unregistered Commentergrumpy of fart
This means that there will be children who now fall through the cracks of the system. There are plenty of non-Catholic adoption agencies that homosexuals can apply to without this obvious attempt to advance a political agenda at the expense of helpless orphans.

Gay is becoming synonymous with evil, trying to destroy the institution of marriage and now keeping children from being adopted by caring parents.
March 11, 2006 | Unregistered Commenterradar
Just a shame. I have to say I'm happy to see the Catholic Church take a stand in the right direction for a change even with the consequences. Hope the gay activists are happy with themselves for doing a disservice to parentless children.
March 11, 2006 | Unregistered Commentertoni
"Gay is becoming synonymous with evil"

Certainly that would seem to be the theocratic agenda....
March 11, 2006 | Unregistered Commentergrumpy of fart
This is sad. Next thing - you can't turn away a babysitter for whatever lifestyle choice they choose to practice. Wouldnt want to violate their "rights" you know.
March 12, 2006 | Unregistered CommenterMark
Presumably the catholic charity understood that whomever accepted adopted babies in the past were sinners. Why is the sin of being gay different?
March 12, 2006 | Unregistered Commenterjez
Hawkeye, you know what's interesting is the visual of what you described in your comments: Massachusetts accomodating the will of the voters (letting the citizens decide what's right for their state and governing themselves, which I support) via same-sex unions; but this liberalism forces religion and charity from itself. This is a very vivid picture of what liberalism does. It forces religion, which is the greatest fascilitator of charity and benevolence, to either violate itself OR to flee. What a sad thing.

However, this Governor seems like a good guy (being from MA makes me suspicious about how Republican he really is) and his emergency bill to allow Religious organizations to be exempt from violating themselves can only be a plus. There are still state agencies and other private agencies that same-sex couples can go to to adopt children beside the Catholic Charities.

"Political Correctness is a jealous god indeed." (M.D.)

Grumpy, how appropriate your user name! How is the Church NOT accountable to the state? What is illegal about the Church deciding not to be forced to offend it's God by the dictates of the state? Your comment about the Pope is ignorant. Yes, Pope Benedict is committing illegal activity and getting away with it... were you perhaps a spokesperson for the Clinton Administration?

Clearly one of the issues here is religious freedom. State governments have been, through various liberal groups, trying to allow for teachers in violation of Church teaching to teach in religious schools.. like gay teachers or Muslim teachers, which is a violation of the Church's policy. This is a battle ultimately the Church will win, one way or another, because we have protection from the State under the 1st Amendment of the Constitution.
March 12, 2006 | Registered CommenterAmy Proctor
"Presumably the catholic charity understood that whomever accepted adopted babies in the past were sinners. Why is the sin of being gay different?"

Jez, this isn't about past sin, it's about violation of current Catholic policy (2000 years of docrtine). This is the official Church teaching about homosexuality from the Catholic Catechism:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm#IV

Chastity and homosexuality

2357- Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,140 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."141 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358- The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359- Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection."

With that said, the Catholic Charities wouldn't grant adoption to a couple living together and not married, or to an alcoholic, or to a single mother. The idea is the IDEAL: that a child be raised with the benefit of both a MOTHER and a FATHER, which is best for the child. Why in the world would Catholic Charities put a child into any "sinful" environment one way or the other?

The Church says homosexual ACTIVITY is sinful, not the homosexual himself, as it were. So to adopt a child out to a couple activity participating in what the Church considers an immoral lifestyle is simply impossible.

Surely this make sense.
March 12, 2006 | Registered CommenterAmy Proctor
Certianly it makes sense, but my question is: which household is not in some sense "sinful"?
March 12, 2006 | Unregistered Commenterjez
Amy,

If you had bothered to follow the link I gave you, it had to do with Ratzinger's complicity in covering up the rapes of young boys. You know, conspiracy to commit, aiding and abetting, that silly stuff. Many clergy fled the country to avoid our laws regarding such things, no?
March 12, 2006 | Unregistered Commentergrumpy of fart
Grumpy, the link didn't work, but I can guarantee you that Pope Benedict is not complicit in "covering up the rapes of young boys." You're welcomed to repost the link so that it works and I'll be happy to blow it to smitherines, along your assumptions about the topic, when you do so. You obviously have never read any of Cardinal Ratzinger/Pope Benedict's thoughts and official declarations on..... probably anything.

March 12, 2006 | Registered CommenterAmy Proctor
Grumpy's link is fine, it's just split over two lines.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1469055,00.html
might work, if not paste the first line then the second line into the address window.

It talks about a letter signed by the now-Pope in 2001 talking about the preference for secrecy in priest abuse cases, claiming the Church's jurisdiction out-ranks that of state police forces. I believe the Church's current position has shifted to one of cooperation with ordinary law enforcement agencies. The letter suggests that the period of secrecy should last until the minor involved was 28 years old. At the time of the artical (2004) the Vatican was not forthcoming with any explanation.

While I disagree with this most sternly, it is certainly possible that Ratzinger's letter is genuinely concerned purely with the matter of jurisdiction, and that he did not wish to hush up allegations or protect deviant priests.
March 12, 2006 | Unregistered Commenterjez
Pope 'obstructed' sex abuse inquiry
April 24, 2005

Nice try, fart. First, you have to have some understanding of the story before trying to hang Catholicism with it. Secondly, this was a letter sent by Cardinal Ratzinger, not Pope Benedict. The confidential letter from Cardinal Ratzinger sent to every Catholic bishop in May 2001, FOUR years before he became Pope.

In the letter, then Cardinal Ratzinger described the issue as 'concerning very grave sins'. The Cardinal in no way minimized the gravity of the offenses; to the contrary. Also, the letter talked about the church's position on a A NUMBER OF MATTERS ranging from celebrating the Eucharist with a non-Catholic to sexual abuse by a cleric 'with a minor below the age of 18 years'.

" 'Cases of this kind are subject to the pontifical secret,' Ratzinger's letter concludes. Breaching the pontifical secret at any time while the 10-year jurisdiction order is operating carries penalties, including the threat of excommunication. "

THIS IS RELATING TO CHURCH LAW, NOT CIVIL OR STATE LAW.

THIS is the crux of the issue: one of the involved bishops said:

'In my opinion, the demand that a bishop be obligated to contact the police in order to denounce a priest who has admitted the offence of paedophilia is unfounded.'

What was being discussed in this letter was the obligation of a bishop to turn in a priest who has admitted the crime. There are several things to keep in mind. 1) the victim SHOULD turn the priest in and the priest SHOULD turn himself in. The Vatican has no authority or desire to halt criminal investigations or proceedings. 2) What is said in the confessional, stays in the confessional. This isn’t a matter of a priest confessing to a crime in normal conversation, but in confession. Priests/Bishops/Cardinals/Popes are obligated by the secrecy of the confession, much like a doctor/patient privilege. Of course the patient SHOULD tell his wife he has cancer, but the doctor cannot FORCE him to do so. He is bound by a code of ethics.

This is a very troublesome and painstaking situation for the confessor (priest hearing the confession). He is bound by Church Law in the same way a doctor is bound by ethical law. A confessor often does (I’m not there personally, but priest friends tell me they would) urge the guilty party to turn himself in . BUT, he cannot turn the confessed in himself. The fault lies squarely on the abuser, not the priest hearing confession, or the Bishop. The abuser who tries to take advantage of the grace afforded him in the confessional is….. I cannot even say what I’m thinking about such persons. They deserve nothing less than hell.

Pope Benedict, while Cardinal, was in charge of the “Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith”, whose entire purpose in life is to “defend the Church from heresy”.
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_pro_14071997_en.html

Safeguarding the truth of the Church was Cardinal Ratzinger’s purpose from 1981-2005 when he left the office to become Pope. He has NO interest whatsoever in defending guilty abusers or to prevent the law from taking its course. Pope Benedict has spoken out frequently in his year as Pope against the horrors of abuse of children by clergy. This is a sophisticated matter of Church Law as it relates to the secrecy of the confessional.

So this has nothing to do with trying to be above the law and the assertion is ignorant, with all due respect.
March 12, 2006 | Registered CommenterAmy Proctor
Hmmmm. The Catholic Church inconsistent? What a shocker. Is this the same church that covers up misdeeds by priests? That hoards wealth? That grants annulments on payoffs and or lies? The permits ineligible divorced catholics from taking communion?

It seems to me that the Catholic Church's opinion on the current subject as well as many others may be safely ignored.
March 12, 2006 | Unregistered CommenterBarry G.
There are still some troubling details. I have no deep knowledge of confessional etiquette, but it seems odd that the period of secrecy should be 10 years... starting when the minor hits 18. What does the boy's age have to do with it??
March 12, 2006 | Unregistered Commenterjez
Mr, Barry, You're 100% wrong about the Catholic Church. You are not informed, in my opinion, about "Church inconsistencies".

An annulment is rare; it is granted only when proven fraud or duress, or that a valid marriage never took place (again, usually goes back to fraud or duress). Even civil law allows for that. Have you heard of civil annulments (like... Britney Spears?) I'm not endorsing or justifying annulments one way or the other, but rather am pointing out that they are valid within the church as they are within each state.

The Catholic Church does not hoard wealth. Go into the poor section of your town and look for the Catholic soup kitchen, outreaches, orphanages, homeless shelters and domestic abuse centers. They're there. If you are referring to the beauty of cathedrals, we Catholics believe God is worth the effort: Jesus said when reprimanded by Judas the disciple (who was also the treasurer of the disciples) about expensive perfume a woman anointed Jesus' feet with, "She has anointed my feet for burial... the poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me." We think it entirely appropriate to have beautiful Churches, but not at the expense of charity. Because Catholics are generous, we can do both. Do you give? Do you support the poor and feed the hungry? I hope so.

Also, Catholicism is a direct offspring of Judiasm. In the Old Testament, God specifically instructs the Jews how to furnish His temple, and it ain't chinsy.

Divorced Catholics can and do take communion. You may be referring to remarried Catholics who have not had their old marriage annuled. Again, this is an exception, not the rule.

That being said, this is the theology behind the indissolubility of marriage:

I Corinthians 7 is a letter from St. Paul about marriage. In verses 10-16 he speaks about separation and divorce.

vs. 10: "But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that he wife should not leave her husband.

vs. 11: "But if she does leave, let her remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband. The husband should not send his wife away."

vs. 14: "For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her husband: for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy."

vs. 16: "For how do you know, o wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, o husband, whether you will save your wife?"

vs. 39: "A wife is bound as long as her husband lives/ but if her husband is dead, she is free to remarry whom she wishes, in the Lord."

This supports the doctrine Paul wrote about in vs. 11 in which he said, "But if she does leave, let her remain unmarried, or else reconciled to her husband." Paul is speaking with the authority of God. Divorce is permissible under some circumstances (I Corin. 7:15), but remarriage is not until the death of the spouse. Remember Jesus' statement to the Pharisees about divorce in Matthew 19:6:

"Consequently they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."

With this, although to divorce is sad, it does not prevent one from taking communion. but the remarriage of such an individual means, according to Christ, that he is in a state of adultery (still being married in the Church to the first wife). If an annulement is granted, it permits remarriage. If not and the person remarries anyway, he would be in a state of mortal sin and should not be given communion. It's that simple, whether you agree or not.
March 12, 2006 | Registered CommenterAmy Proctor
"So this has nothing to do with trying to be above the law and the assertion is ignorant, with all due respect"

You're joking, right? Keeping the secret until the age of majority +10 years is a canonical thing? Some God given rule? It clearly relates to one thing, and one thing only. The avoidance of civil and/or criminal liability.
March 12, 2006 | Unregistered Commentergrumpy of fart
Grumpy, I can only assume my explanation was over your head. I will reiterate this: This "letter" from 2001 does NOTHING to inhibite criminal and civil prosecution. The letter was ONLY relating to Church matters, not civil. The Catholic Church cooperates in criminal and civil hearings with the law.

This "letter" does not interfere with an abuse victim from prosecuting an abuser. The state should prosecute any abuser to the fullest extent of the law whether he's a priest, bishop or pope.

Over 80% (as I've outlined repeatedly in other places on this blog) of all child abuse cases in the Church are at the hands of gay priests on minor boys. Get rid of gay priests and 80% of the problem is gone. Also, this abuse happens by about 1.3% of priests, which is a very low rate of abusers. One abuse case is too many, but I'm just qualifying the facts.

Again, this is a Church issue about releasing publicly information about these cases. This does not speak to the legal and civil aspects of the cases. I am not sure what the 10 year thing is about, but with everything else the church does, it's not without a reason. I don't know what the reason is, but I can research it.

Hope this helps.
March 12, 2006 | Registered CommenterAmy Proctor
"I'm not sure what the 10 year thing is..."

Yes Amy, please do research. I'm sure it's something scriptural about why the church has to cover up knowledge of abuse until 10 years after the abused minor gains majority...lol.
March 12, 2006 | Unregistered Commentergrumpy of fart
Grumpy, I'm trying to be nice.

If you want to factually disclose information about "coverups", be my guest. I'm sure you know a lot about scripture yourself? That's what I thought.

Did you not hear a thing I said? You're making a mountain out of a molehill. 1.3% of all priests are involved in abuse cases. The Church is made up of people from the general population. The overwhelming majority of priests, bishops and cardinals are exemplary men. It is the gay men in the priesthood causting the trouble.

The Church has an obligation to investigate thoroughly these cases. They don't have an obligation to open up their findings to the public. THIS DOES NOT RESTRICT A VICTIM FROM BRINING SUIT AGAINST AN ABUSER OR FROM THE STATE IN BRINGING CHARGES AGAINST THE ABUSER. So what's your real beef? Are you for parental notification in abortion for minors? If you are, you're a total hypocrite.

March 12, 2006 | Registered CommenterAmy Proctor
"THIS DOES NOT RESTRICT A VICTIM FROM BRINING SUIT AGAINST AN ABUSER OR FROM THE STATE IN BRINGING CHARGES AGAINST THE ABUSER"

I'm trying to be nice, THE ORDER TO FATHER CONFESSORS TO COVER UP CRIMES COMMITTED BY A PRIEST UNTIL THE LONG AFTER THE ABUSED MINOR, OR AUTHORITES, CAN DO MUCH IS ABOUT IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SCRIPTURE.

By the way, I have read the bible. As you should know, most athiests have actually read more of it than your average joe six pew. There ain't no 18+10 rule regarding cover=ups of child abuse in there.
March 12, 2006 | Unregistered Commentergrumpy of fart
Ah,that explains it! You're an athiest. And what part of the Bible did you find most interesting? How about the part about stoning homosexuals for their acts in Leviticus? or the killing of followers of false religions in Samuel? My point being.... if you want to use the Bible (which you haven't actually done, nor can you), you might want to try either enbracing it all or rejecting it all.

The Pope is brilliant. I'm reading 2 of his books right now. He doesn't believe in cover ups or child abuse. Move on, bro....

You cannot produce anything other than a conspiracy "cover up" theory.

March 12, 2006 | Registered CommenterAmy Proctor
grumpy: if you're gonna have confessionals, you need to be confident of your priest's confidentiality.
March 12, 2006 | Unregistered Commenterjez
Thank you jez for at least being coherent. Amy saw "athiest" and appears to have gone all ballistic.

So what is the theory behind the 18+10 rule then jez? Why did Ratz tie the statute of limitations on the "sanctity of the confessional" to the age of the victim in this manner?
March 12, 2006 | Unregistered Commentergrumpy of fart
And Amy, by saying "you might want to try either enbracing [sic] it all or rejecting it all..." are you advocating the stoning of gays, non-christians, etc.?

A little loose in the logic department there, no?
March 12, 2006 | Unregistered Commentergrumpy of fart
Lots of commenters seem to have a few misunderstandings about this story. First of all, this piece of news was NOT brought on by Massachusetts passing any new anti-discrimination laws. Catholic Charities of Boston had been placing children with gay couples since 1987 (when the anti-discrimination legislation was passed). A tiny percentage of children, and children that were difficult to place, but nonetheless it's been happening for almost twenty years. Also, since in 1987 same-sex marriage was not an option, this would suggest that they were placing children in the homes of unmarried heterosexuals as well.

Then, last October, the Boston Globe found out about these same-sex adoptions and the Church decided to conduct a study and figure things out by January. In December, the board of Catholic Charities of Boston voted unanimously to continue placement in same-sex households. But the four bishops decided the opposite. Seven of those board members actually resigned over the issue. So it's not just a fight with the government, it's a squabble with the lay Catholics working for CCB too.

Also, CCB accepts public funds. Can't we make an analogy with the university/US military case and say if they accept public funds, they should follow the public's rules? (Sidebar: So many of you suggested that if universities didn't want recruiters on campus they should stop taking public money. Guess you didn't read the whole decision, because Roberts explicitly says that wouldn't get them out of it.)
March 13, 2006 | Registered Commenternicole
Grumpy, you apparently aren't getting it and I don't have time for this. My point was that if you're going to condemn people using the Bible, you probably ought to make sure you not only believe in the contents of the Bible, as well as make sure you yourself are above condemnation.

You're beating a dead horse. I think it's time to move on from the "10 year rule" discourse. Most issues of confidentiality (as I have painstakingly outlined) have a lifetime gurantee.

Nicole, if what you're saying is true, it's a great thing that the Church did a 180 and stopped putting children in gay homes. I cannot imagine the Church or Catholic Charities doing so, but the CC is not the Church itself; sometimes these organizations have an agenda outside the Church, but I have never known this to be the case with CC.

I'll reiterate what I put in the original post:

******************************
A statement from Father J. Bryan Hehir, president of Catholic Charities, said:

"The world was very different when (Catholic) Charities began this ministry at the threshold of the 20th-century. The world changed often and we adapted the ministry to meet changing times and needs. At all times we sought to place the welfare of children at the heart of our work.

"But now, we have encountered a dilemma we cannot resolve. In spite of much effort and analysis, Catholic Charities of Boston finds that it cannot reconcile the teaching of the church, which guides our work, and the statutes and regulations of the commonwealth. The issue is adoption to same-sex couples, and we realize that for many it is a sensitive, deeply felt issue of conscience.

"Catholic Charities in the United States is an agency exercising constitutionally guaranteed religious freedom that has stepped forward to provide placement for orphaned children.

"Sadly, we have come to a moment when Catholic Charities in the Archdiocese of Boston must withdraw from the work of adoptions, in order to exercise (that) religious freedom.”
********************************
This seems inconsistent with what you're saying, that CC has been placing children in gay homes. It's also totally in opposition to the Church. Do you have a link or documentation? I'd be interested to read more.

Also, you said: "CCB accepts public funds". The archbishop of Boston said in a Feb. statement: "Catholic Charities will fulfill its contract obligations to the state while it prepares to withdraw from adoption services."

The CC HAS been "playing by the states rules", which is what the dilemma is really all about. And as you can see, it is withdrawing from the process.

March 13, 2006 | Registered CommenterAmy Proctor
"My point was that if you're going to condemn people using the Bible..."

Where did I do this?

"I think it's time to move on from the "10 year rule" discourse."

Well, that's certainly understandable from your standpoint. It's got to be uncomfortable for you to not have a clue why this rule was instituted....

Moving on......
March 13, 2006 | Unregistered Commentergrumpy old fart
Grumpy,

Since you are the one obsessed with the "10 year" jurisdiction letter, it's up to you to make the point, not me. It's not uncomfortable for ME... in fact, I am assured by the fact that I know and trust my Church and that the Pope reputation is above reproach. Would 5 years be better? 1 year? I suspect your dislike for the Church is all you need to condemn Her and how many years the Church decides how to handle its OWN cases is up to her. You're welcomed to explore it further. It's irrelevant and I don't have time to repeat myself.

March 13, 2006 | Registered CommenterAmy Proctor
Shocking but true! It's not the gays hurting the kiddies, it's the fundie bishops...

"The 42-member board unanimously voted in December in favor of continuing gay adoptions at Catholic Charities..."

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/
articles/2006/03/02/
seven_quit_charity_over_policy_of_bishops/

"The course the Bishops have charted threatens the very essence of our Christian mission. For the sake of the poor we serve, we pray they will reconsider."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/02/national/
main1361889.shtml

March 13, 2006 | Unregistered Commentergrumpy old fart
Grumpy,

Good riddance. The board members, made up of prominent business and media leaders, announced their resignations yesterday....

They should go join the floundering Episcopal Church where open homosexuality is embrace. Of course, the Church as a result is going broke, the bishop in alcohol rehab and the church virtually split in two, but hey! There's progression for you.

The Catholic Church is what it is. If you don't want to be a Catholic, don't. The last thing the Church needs is more quasi-Catholics watering down the message of Christ. There are plenty of other denominations that can do that.

I also think the members did the right thing stepping down instead of trying to change the Church, which cannot be done. Established doctrine is just that: established and unchangable.
March 13, 2006 | Registered CommenterAmy Proctor
Amy,

I'm fully aware that the CCB is not the Church and does not necessarily follow Church doctrine -- this is why the bishops are stepping in. I also believe that if the board members disagree with doctrine, they probably shouldn't be running a Catholic organization.

I do feel for them though. In nineteen years, they have placed thirteen children in same-sex households. All of the children were in foster care, had developmental problems, and were older than adoptees typically are. So I don't really think they had an agenda per se, I think twenty years ago they decided to quietly comply with the law and just make the best of it.

I also think the bishops were right to seek legislative changes. I don't think a religious organization (including schools, etc) should have to compromise its principles. But I do think some of the reporting is misleading. State legislators are getting slammed in religious media for a decades-old law that only became an issue because the Globe dug up a story embarassing to the Church. And I'm sure you know, as a Massachusetts native, that emotions are still running high there after the abuse scandals. This is why the legislators are reluctant to touch it now, and it's also why the bishops are so intent on making a stand on doctrine and orthodoxy. (Let me be very clear: the abuse is completely irrelevant to this issue except insofar as many people in Massachusetts have become disillusioned and disappointed in the Church.)

What I'm still unclear on is how accountable the CCB is to the Church. They have their own board voting on issues like this, but are they actually in control?

Oh, and grumpy posted the link to the Boston Globe article I was going to send you to. Meant to include it in the first post but forgot.
March 13, 2006 | Registered Commenternicole
"Can't we make an analogy with the university/US military case and say if they accept public funds, they should follow the public's rules? (Sidebar: So many of you suggested that if universities didn't want recruiters on campus they should stop taking public money. Guess you didn't read the whole decision, because Roberts explicitly says that wouldn't get them out of it.)"

Actually, Nicole, Roberts was refering to the Constitutional right to raise and support armies. I don't see how gay "rights" fits in here.

Check out the ruling at

http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/06Mar20061300/www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/05pdf/04-1152.pdf

It can be found at:

www.supremecourtus.gov
March 13, 2006 | Unregistered CommenterMwalimu Daudi
I want to add one more thing. I don't like this talk from Gov. Romney about the rights of adults vs. the needs of children. That's not what this is about. This is about religious freedom. The Massachusetts legislature decided that the needs of children could be met by same-sex couples. That was their decision to make on behalf of the people of Massachusetts, but not on behalf of the Church. There is no reason you can't serve both groups with anti-discrimination legislation that doesn't apply to religious organizations.
March 13, 2006 | Registered Commenternicole
Pretty sorry showing by all parties. The guv and CCB ought to be grownup and work this out
March 13, 2006 | Unregistered CommenterDon Surber
The Catholic Church has put the rights of adults before the needs of children in the very recent past. Its reaction to pedophile priests was so shameful that the church now has very little moral high ground when it comes to issues like these.
March 13, 2006 | Unregistered CommenterMeg
Why isn't anyone thinking about "THE CHILDREN?!" I just don't get it.

So there were a few bad priests, does that mean all priests are prone to pediphilia? No, of course not! Let it go.

Everyone's main concern should be for the welfare of these precious little children who do not have homes and I applaud the Catholic Church for standing up for what is right. Bravo!

Jez you said, " Presumably the catholic charity understood that whomever accepted adopted babies in the past were sinners. Why is the sin of being gay different?"

Most Christian churches aka, Catholics, non-denominational, etc. Believe what the Bible teaches regarding homosexuality. So, why should this wonderful institution back down from their beliefs just to satisfy a subversive group of arrogant people?
March 13, 2006 | Unregistered CommenterLeticia
Leticia, EXCELLENT COMMENTS! Superb. :)

Meg, I'm sad to read your comment:


"The Catholic Church has put the rights of adults before the needs of children in the very recent past. Its reaction to pedophile priests was so shameful that the church now has very little moral high ground when it comes to issues like these."


I will NEVER condone abuse, ever. Period. But to suggest the Church has put the rights of adults over those of children is an outright lie. Have you ever heard of Mother Teresa and the Missionaries of Mercy? Have you heard of the millions of Catholics in religious life who go into the poorest countries to feed and save children? Have you not heard that the Catholic Church is arguably the world's most strident opponent of abortion, the MURDER OF CHILDREN?

There's no point in going on. You believe what you want because it suits your needs. So be it. The whole reason this story is a story is because the Church is refusing to put the desires of gay couples over the needs of children TO BE RAISED BY BOTH A MOTHER AND A FATHER, not two mommies or two daddies.

You're wrong on this issue. The Church has far more "moral high ground" than you're admitting to. 1.3% of the priest population does NOT make up the entire Church. If you stick to this argument, you're going to have a hard time defending the Democratic party.
March 14, 2006 | Unregistered CommenterAmy Proctor
2 mums or 2 dads is better than none. There are examples of mixed-sex couples who would be worse than examples of same-sex couples.

We're all sinners. Why is the gay thing the only sin which should disqualify one from adopting. No-one's addressed the uniqueness of being gay.

There is another question about enabline faith-based organisations to be exampt from the civil standards of the host nation. Freedom of religion is not absolute, just like freedom of speech is not absolute. There must be boundaries.

Perhaps this highlights a problem with relying on faith-groups too much. I know that our governments are keen to promote them and fund them, but there are many occassions where they fail to meet the moral standards of the day.
March 14, 2006 | Unregistered Commenterjez
Thanks Amy!
March 14, 2006 | Unregistered CommenterLeticia
Jez:Presumably the catholic charity understood that whomever accepted adopted babies in the past were sinners. Why is the sin of being gay different?

Bet: First of all, one must take into consideration the church's position on Homosexual activity. She believes it is intrinsically wrong. She gets this position from scripture itself. One example can be found in Romans 1-24-32
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
uncleanness Matt 23:27, Rom 6:19, 2nd Cor 6:17, 2nd Cor 12:21, Gal 5:19, Eph 4:19, Eph 5:3, Eph 5:5, Col 3:5, 1st Thess 4:7
bodies 1st Cor 6:18, 1st Thess 4:4

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
pleasure Psa 10:3, 1st Cor 13:6



So, you ask why is the sin of being Gay different. Well, BEING gay wouldn't really be the issue, it is the acting out of a homosexual lifestyle that is really the issue. Unless a "couple" is going to live as , sibling and sibling, in this case, don't you think that a child will be influenced by their gestures, attitude, etc, into thinking that homosexual behavior is OK? As far as the church goes it's NOT OK, so why put children in a home where they will be bombarded with something the church does not approve of?
March 14, 2006 | Unregistered CommenterBet
Jez: but my question is: which household is not in some sense "sinful"?

Bet, most people don't have a desire to continue to sin. Most try to NOT sin. Do you think homosexuals who adopt are going to stop living the lifestyle? Or do you feel that most who live that lifestyle and want to adopt will expose the children to what they feel is only natural?
March 14, 2006 | Unregistered CommenterBet
The point is to place children in loving, caring, nurturing and secure homes, no?

If we admit that "being" gay is not the sin, then what are we really concerned with here? What is the homosexual "behaviour" that you are really concerned with here Bet?

A gay individual or couple that is loving, caring, nurturing and financially able to support an abandoned child is disqualified because of their "gestures, attitude, etc,"?
March 14, 2006 | Unregistered Commentergrumpy of fart
The point is that religions have principles that the state cannot violate. The Catholic Charities ceasing adoption services doesn't mean that there are no more adoption services in MA.

The state does not have the right to force the Church to do something against it's own conscience. Let the state adoption agencies give children to "loving, caring, nurturing" families.

People with no principles find this hard to follow.
March 14, 2006 | Registered CommenterAmy Proctor
Thanks Bet. But how far do we take this? Corintheans instructs Christians not to be "unequally yoked" in marriage -- ie not to marry a non-Christian. Would the Catholic charities also refuse to send children to a couple from different faiths?
March 15, 2006 | Unregistered Commenterjez
Jez, the "instruction" in 1 Corinthians 7, a letter written by St. Paul to the Church of Corinth, admonished the "unequal yoking" together of believers and non-believers. He prefaced it with "this is my opinion in the Lord". It's a common sense issue, not a moral law.

However, if it were a doctrinal issue, Catholic Charities would have every right to deny adoption to any such couples. The point being that the State cannot force a religious organization, church or charity to violate it's own docrtinal and moral objectives.

Of course, the Church adopts out to non-Christians so this clearly isn't an issue; one Christian one non-Christian mixed couple is an irrelevant issue.
March 15, 2006 | Registered CommenterAmy Proctor
grumpy: If we admit that "being" gay is not the sin, then what are we really concerned with here? What is the homosexual "behaviour" that you are really concerned with here Bet?

A gay individual or couple that is loving, caring, nurturing and financially able to support an abandoned child is disqualified because of their "gestures, attitude, etc,"

Bet: What do you mean, "What is the homosexual behavior that you are really concerned with?" Perhaps this will clear it up. Does an average heterosexual parent, kiss, hug or show affection to his/her significant other? In other words, at some point in time, doesn't a child pick up on the difference between say a hug and kiss one gives a friend, and a hug/kiss/ affection one gives their significant other? So, unless one is going to say that a homosexual "couple" who adopts is going to live a completely chaste sibling type of relationship, then don't you think that some affection is going to be displayed? And let's be real, as a child grows and learns the birds and the bees, well let's just say, children aren't stupid, they KNOW what goes on. So, again since the church feels homosexual relationships are immoral, WHY should a child be put into an "immoral" situation where they will be "taught" that what they are seeing is "normal". It isn't, as some turn this into, sex in front of the kids. No, I don't think MOST parents have "sex" in front of the kids, but that doesn't mean they aren't learning what "relationships" encompass. I applaud the Catholic charities for adhering to the church's teaching rather than simply going the PC route.
March 15, 2006 | Unregistered CommenterBet

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