Obama Targets Plumbers for a Laugh in Speech on Taxes
Monday, November 3, 2008 at 09:12AM Obama the Socialist on the stump:
OBAMA: I will give a tax break to 95% of Americans who work every day, get taxes taken out of their paycheck every week. They work just as hard as folks making a million dollars. Maybe they haven’t been as lucky. Maybe they weren’t been as well connected. They deserve a break.
And I’ll help pay for this by, yes, asking the folks who are making more than $250,000 a year, a quarter million dollars a year, to go back to the tax rates they were paying in the 1990’s.
Now let me just see another show of hands. How many are making less than a quarter million dollars a year? So I’m talking to you! Which, by the way, includes 98% of small businesses, and 99.9% of plumbers.”
Is that a swipe at Joe the Plumber or plumbers in general?
Obama doesn’t seem to understand that when you do the math, a company that grosses $250,000 and pays 9 employees $25,000 a year plus medical and benefits doesn’t have a lot left over to consider itself wealthy. Taxing these companies will mean layoffs and a rise in unemployment.
Trackback URL: http://amyproctor.squarespace.com/blog/trackback/2504946
View Printer Friendly Version
Email Article to Friend
Reader Comments (58)
While I can agree that the people lower on the "totem pole" work just as hard, that's as far as it goes. Those hard workers don't have the responsibility for more than their own contribution to the work being done. That's all they have to worry about. They go home after work and don't have to think about work again until the next work day. The further up that pole you are, the more responsibility you have for more than just yourself.
Just for plumbers, this is what the guys at the top have to deal with: Obama vs. Jobs
Sure it sounds good to "tax the rich" but what is there to prompt the rich to keep taking the risks and responsibilities for giving other people jobs? Do the work they do plus the responsibility plus the risk of operating a business mean nothing in terms of economic gain? With the risks they take, that economic gain is the only buffer they have between them and events that result in bankruptcy.
I have an Australian friend who was in business... well, she still is but this is a second try... her first attempt, she hired and hired and hired because she wanted to be part of providing jobs; a noble pursuit. In the end, however, she neglected the other parts of her business, like not paying in enough taxes for all the people she hired and a number of other parts of the business suffered because of her "need" to give people jobs. She lost it all in a humungous tax bill that took a long time to pay off. When she started fresh with a better business plan, she was still paying those back taxes.
Yeah, I know, that's Australia, not the U.S. but the same principle holds. If you try to keep working people that you can't really afford to adequately provide for, you go bankrupt. That's what all these small business owners know that Obama apparently doesn't get... or if he does, he doesn't care. Whichever of those are true, the effect is still the same.
Amy: "... Is that a swipe at Joe the Plumber or plumbers in general?"
SG: Plugging the depths of the possible, again, I see Amy!? What is it with (R)z and Plumbers anyway ... ? Wouldn't it seem more likely that it was a swipe at the Mc'Inane' campaign and his "Joe the Plumber" icon?
Snerd
$tephD+, The-Econo-Missed: "... Sure it sounds good to "tax the rich" but what is there to prompt the rich to keep taking the risks and responsibilities for giving other people jobs?"
SG: The incentive is not having to do the jobs of the people they employ, for the wages they pay ...
Obama has said he wants to return to the taxation levels that existed under Clinton ... You remember that!? ... the SURPLUS and all ... with high employment and low unemployment ... where everybody made out better, before "W"z Kat(R)ina style economics, ... You'd have thought a little of those memories woulda "t(R)ickled down" ... if t(R)ickle down were to work at all ...
Snerd
Resistance is futile... You will be assimilated...
The Borg & The Messi-uh Obama
Joe The Plumber be prepared to be re-educated the government is here to take care of you, can't you see that???
SG: Obama has said he wants to return to the taxation levels that existed under Clinton ... Obama has said he wants to return to the taxation levels that existed under Clinton ...
SG, my hubby, working in the construction industry, spent a lot of time unemployed during the Clinton years. Sure he got unemployment but that check was less than half what he made when employed. I know there are problems in the economy and prices are going ever higher but at least, as long as hubby stays employed we can contribute some small bit of disposable income into the economy to help it limp along. Unemployed, we won't have that income and will barely be able to pay our regular bills, let alone do anything extra.
Add to that, skyrocketing energy prices and you've got a recipe for disaster that will quite likely exceed the Great Depression. If Obama wins and manages to do even half what he promises to do, history... if there is a history to write after that... might be kind enough to just call him "Nation killer."
The problem is he makes everything sound so good, but as is often said in any endeavor: The devil is in the details.
Joe the Unlicensed isn't making a quater-mil, nor would the buisness he really isn't planning on buying either. He will, however, stand up and spew philippics on how Obama isn't a good American.
It's so refreshing to see that McCain has entrusted a political newbie/nobody to spew vile talking points during a crucial time in the campaign. That shows good judgement, great foresight, and a well thought-out strategy. That's my McCain!
Punchy: "... It's so refreshing to see that McCain has entrusted a political newbie/nobody to spew vile talking points during a crucial time in the campaign. That shows good judgement, great foresight, and a well thought-out strategy. That's my McCain!"
SG: Yah ... But what about his use of Joe the Plumber ...!?
Snerd
Peter-of-the-Statement-Department: "... Resistance is futile ... You will be assimilated..."
SG: Glad you've joined the Reality Based Community and (R) admitting Mc'Kanes' defeat is immanent.
Secondly the (R) party will not be assimilated. It will split into Palin's Joe-Six-Pack and those embarrassed by it, the (R) intelligensia.
This is (R)ove's legacy of divisiveness, in a world where nemesis still exists ...
Snerd
StephC: Your hubby not withstanding, unemployment rates are far, far higher today than they were under Clinton. Economic times were overall quite prosperous for the majority of the those year, and though he can't take credit for all of that prosperity, he is credited for passing through legislation that helped decrease govt spending and for retaining economic experts from the Bush/Reagan years in his adminstration. And what I don't understand (maybe you can help me) is that Obama specifically has proposals in his tax policies to help out small business owners, including providing large credits for every worker who is employed domestically, and tax incentives for providing health care for employees. He also has talked extensively about providing more grants for entrepeneurs and rising tech firms, something that appeals to a lot of Ohioan small business owners including several collegues of mine.
Peter-of-the-Statement-Department: "... Resistance is futile ... You will be assimilated..."
SG: Glad you've joined the Reality Based Community and (R) admitting Mc'Kanes' defeat is immanent.
The Gronk
LOL!!! I think your version reality might be THC based. LOL!!! If the Obama is elected the only people that are going to splashed with the cold water of reality is his "followers" realizing that he doesn't walk on water. hahahaha...
MD: "... And what I don't understand (maybe you can help me) is that Obama specifically has proposals in his tax policies to help out small business owners, including providing large credits for every worker who is employed domestically, and tax incentives for providing health care for employees. He also has talked extensively about providing more grants for entrepeneurs and rising tech firms, something that appeals to a lot of Ohioan small business owners including several collegues of mine."
SG: But he's a stealth Muslim, Black liberation Christian, Marxist who eats A-R-U-G-U-L-A ...! not like Joe-Six-Pack-EXXON-John or Sachs Palin ...!
Snerd
MD, do the math. Obama's tax credit is $5000 for every new hire. That new hire is going to cost that employer way more than that in salary, taxes, health insurance, business liability insurance (so much per employee), unemployment insurance, and so on. In the end, that employer might get back perhaps 1% of his investment in that new hire. In the end, that "tax break" isn't worth it, not when the bottom line is still going to be in the red.
On the unemployment rate... part of that is government workers and costs of operations for both the governments at all levels and businesses. Local and state governments, in an effort to try to recoup costs, put in a bunch of tax and fee hikes that had the opposite effect. Trust me on that. I lost approximately $500/year of what was once disposable income on taxes and fees alone, let alone the higher prices for goods. Congress added its own little padding, too, although they didn't touch Bush's tax cuts. They did raise the tax on energy, FEC fees, and other little kickers floating around that individually, didn't amount to much, but together have hit Americans in the pocket along with the state and local hits to that same pocket.
On top of that, we've got the government and Wall Street playing fast and loose with the mortgage industry through Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. The credit industry as a whole hasn't played right, either, starting with banks such as Bank of America offering unsecured credit cards to illegal aliens. Now, I believe something needs to be done about that in some form that is not totally heartless, but things like this is not the right thing to do. Some of those aliens have no intention of becoming citizens and feel absolutely no obligation to repay their obligations such as credit cards, car loans, and so on. Guess who gets stuck with it? Especially with the credit card industry. I had one card... one, when the average is something like 8. I watched the interest climb on that card from 14.9% to 29.9% then to 32.9% through no fault of my own. I always paid on time and overpaid when there was a balance I couldn't pay off with one payment. What did I do to deserve that? What did anybody else do to deserve that? The result was, even less disposable income.
The smaller the amount of disposable income that people have to put into the economy buying goods and even necessities for some, the worse the economy gets.
For instance, there was a time not that long ago when, if I wanted to buy a new TV I could do that without thinking about it too much. Now, there are millions of people at my income level who are probably in the same shape. End result: Circuit has to cut back. The same things with cars. We are a one car family because my car went kaput and since I work from home, I just wait to use our single car when I need to do whatever needs to be done. Not only are gas prices exhorbitant so is the financing for car loans.
Hubby wants a new computer monitor. Before, I could have said no problem. Now, he might get it in six or months or so. That's what's happening on a large scale all over the nation.
There is no single item that put us where we are right now but a lot of small items that taken together add up to one big mess.
Now, we can do without those things I talked about and still survive. All of us can but you can't expect the economy to grow in conditions like that. Add more taxes to the mix and it's just going to get worse.
Stiph D-: "... MD, do the math. Obama's tax credit is $5000 for every new hire. That new hire is going to cost that employer way more than that in salary, taxes, health insurance, business liability insurance (so much per employee), unemployment insurance, and so on. In the end, that employer might get back perhaps 1% of his investment in that new hire. In the end, that "tax break" isn't worth it, not when the bottom line is still going to be in the red."
SG; Do the math ... Eh!?
So, if $5000 = 1% of Cost of each new Hire
Then 100% = $500,000 Cost per each new Hire
(R) math! Wow!
Snerd
Oh yeah, one more thing. A good chunk of the money Clinton used to balance the budget came out of the Social Security Trust Fund which had been put into the general fund at some point. I can't remember exactly when that happened so I'm not blaming Clinton for that part of it but he raided that money to reduce the deficit.
A robbing of Peter to pay Paul, so to speak. If you were to go to Washington and asked to see the money that belongs to the Social Security Fund, they'd laugh at you. It looked great on paper until you saw all the IOUs or bonds, as "they" call them. Somewhere, somehow, somebody is going to have to make good on those bonds, or write them off as a loss. If they get written off, where's the social security in that?
Well, gee, SG, maybe it's 10% because I made a typo. I need a new keyboard and my shift key sticks, too. And that's being generous since that's about 50,000. With all the perks, like unemployment and health insurance it's probably going to be a bit more than that. In any case, it still leads to a bottom line in the red.
Besides, your math is wrong. It's 10% of 50,000, not what's 100 times 5000.
Steph-Don't-C: "... Now, we can do without those things I talked about and still survive. All of us can but you can't expect the economy to grow in conditions like that. Add more taxes to the mix and it's just going to get worse."
SG: Yah it would be different if Obama were going to >taxes on the people you describe, on the middle class, won't it!? What if he were only going to increase taxes on people who had enough income so they wouldn't be facing the kinda choices you are!?
We have more regulation in Canada and higher taxes ... The result. We haven't have the kinda mettle down y'all are have below the border.
We have health insurance. We still find a reason to work. We have less crime, less people in prison and generally a higher standard of living, given that we don't have your depths of poverty. This is also true for much of Europe.
Snerd
We have health insurance. We still find a reason to work. We have less crime, less people in prison and generally a higher standard of living, given that we don't have your depths of poverty. This is also true for much of Europe.
Snerd
Geez, you also have a country next door that's willing to defend your country. Canada spent $14 billion dollars on defense. The Socialist Republic of California spent $68 billion dollars on "edumucating" 3 million kids. I'm glad that you can have your socialist goodies on our account, Snerd.
Peter-p(R)inciple: "... Geez, you also have a country next door that's willing to defend your country. ... I'm glad that you can have your socialist goodies on our account, Snerd."
SG: Still lots of braying from the Statement Department, I see ... Speaking of ignorant Americans, 'there' Daw-Daw, Canadian soldiers fighting and dieing over in Afghanistan, on your behalf ... as we speak.
Snerd
"KEYING" in on the Main Points
Steph-"O": "... Well, gee, SG, maybe it's 10% because I made a typo. I need a new keyboard and my shift key sticks, too. "
SG: Personally, I think it is because you realize that "O" was an Arabic and Muslim invention, and unconsciously you are avoiding that key, but can not put you finger on why, as it were ...
In the same vein, your difficulty is making a 'shift' is also unconsciously metaphorical ... Thanks to "W", the Reagan Era has come to an end ... We (R) shifting away from it, so to speak ...
Snerd
Snerd, Obama will let the Bush tax cuts expire. Now, semantically, he can argue that's not a tax hike but that's what it will feel like to middle America.
I'm already down a lot of disposable income with those tax cuts in place. When they expire, my tax bill is going up about $2000, perhaps more. I won't be eligible for his tax breaks since most of them are tied to children asnd I already itemize my tax returns. I will be hurting badly in a couple of years if Obama gets elected.
Steph-"O": "... I will be hurting badly in a couple of years if Obama gets elected."
SG: Then you (R) making over $250,000.00!
Snerd
SG: Personally, I think it is because you realize that "O" was an Arabic and Muslim invention, and unconsciously you are avoiding that key, but can not put you finger on why, as it were ...
LOL I wish I had an excuse but, unfortunately, I'm just a terrible typist. I have to proofread everything I write and still miss stuff.
The a, s, n, e, and o letters on my keyboard barely still have the letter outline on them. I rarely type numbers so I'm all thumbs on them most of the time. I broke off a piece under the shift key on one side when I was cleaning it one time so it somehow hooks and sticks and I'll look up to see everything in all caps and have to start again. I'll get a cheap replacement once the election is over and I can take a few days to recuperate. We haven't gotten those "tax hikes" yet.
SG: Still lots of braying from the Statement Department, I see ... Speaking of ignorant Americans, 'there' Daw-Daw, Canadian soldiers fighting and dieing over in Afghanistan, on your behalf ... as we speak.
Snerd
Who said that I was ignorant of this fact? Not once did I disaparage the Canadian Soldier, so please don't try to put words into my mouth. All I did is point out that Canada and a majority of Europe doesn't have to spend HUGE amounts of money to protect their countries, because the US is still WILLING to defend them.
SG: Then you (R) making over $250,000.00!
No, read what I wrote. Obama will let the Bush tax cuts expire and we go back to what we were paying during the Clinton years. Every year during the Clinton years we wound up paying in about $2000 more than what was deducted from hubby's paychecks. Since his wages are stagnant and have been for the last 5 years or so, I figure that's about what we'll have to pay extra again... maybe a litte more than that when I figure in what I'm making that I wasn't making during the Clinton years.
Obama was quite specific about no tax increase under $250K and less taxes if under $200K. Well I guess you'll "C"....
The money to regulate the economy and rebuild the infrastructure after the pillaging by "W"z base has to come from some where.
Snerd
Great post Amy! Having run a business myself, which my dh and I recently sold to the new owners I can tell you that there are so many overheads and costs involved. There's not alot left after it all goes out.
Peter-p(R)inciple: "... Geez, you also have a country next door that's willing to defend your country. ... I'm glad that you can have your socialist goodies on our account, Snerd."
SG: Still lots of braying from the Statement Department, I see ... Speaking of ignorant Americans, 'there' Daw-Daw, Canadian soldiers fighting and dieing over in Afghanistan, on your behalf ... as we speak.
Peter-of-the-Statement-Department: Who said that I was ignorant of this fact? Not once did I disaparage the Canadian Soldier, so please don't try to put words into my mouth.
SG: You were "disaparaging" the Canadian form of government, claiming it was living off the benefits of the US. In fact one could say, it is Ame(R)ican who are pursuing the unnecessary "W"a(R) in Iraq who are living of the benefit of Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan ... !
Snerd
Snerd, it's semantics. It didn't get much play but he stated quite adamantly that the Bush tax cuts would be expire under his administration. To him, that's not a tax hike because he's not actually pushing for legislation to hike taxes, simply letting other legislation cutting taxes expire.
He has not changed that position in all the statements he has made since. He talks about tax breaks in the form of credits. What if you do qualify for any of those credits, like I don't?
see the typoes... lol... that do in the last sentence should have been don't.
Steph-"O": "... He has not changed that position in all the statements he has made since. He talks about tax breaks in the form of credits. What if you do qualify for any of those credits, like I don't?"
SG: Then you must be part of the 5% ... No!?
Snerd
Never mind, snerd. You're not getting it at all.. either that or you're willfully ignoring what I said to keep asking the same question.
SG: You were "disaparaging" the Canadian form of government, claiming it was living off the benefits of the US. In fact one could say, it is Ame(R)ican who are pursuing the unnecessary "W"a(R) in Iraq who are living of the benefit of Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan ... !
Snerd
Hahaha. so sensitive... It is a fact that the US will not currently tolerate any aggression towards Canada. All Canadians know this, are you trying to say it's not true? Because of this fact a country like say Russia, wouldn't even think about exploiting the great natural resources of your country. But don't worry there are enough American soldiers to keep you free. LOL...
Steph-5%: "... Never mind, snerd. You're not getting it at all.. either that or you're willfully ignoring what I said to keep asking the same question."
SG: I get the "Expiry" vs. "New Taxes" vs. "Rising Costs".
Still wondering if for you, the Expiry+ Tax Decrease = Tax Increase for you (assuming you are -$250k) . places you in the 5% of families who make under $250k, but are not going to see a tax cut?
Snerd
Daw-Daw: "... Because of this fact a country like say Russia, wouldn't even think about exploiting the great natural resources of your country. But don't worry there are enough American soldiers to keep you free. LOL..."
SG: Actually, the USA is 'laying claim' as it were, to Canadian territory in our Arctic, claiming that some of the waters within the 200 mile Canadian limit, are no longer ours, but international water, free for the USA to exploit ... Some protection!
Snerd
Amy, this is a good post. I really don't want to get into a huge debate with everyone.
I disagree with Obama and that's all I am going to say.
I don't blame you at all, Leticia. The debates are becoming more hostile nationwide. If you look at other political blogs, the arguing is downright nasty. I try to maintain a standard here.
Per Joe the Plumber, back before we were active duty, my husband was a plumber and carpenter and he didn't need a license for either one. The owner of the companies and foremen needed licenses. The whole "Joe doens't have a licence" mantra is a smoke screen to deflect from Obama's limp wristed answer.
SG: I get the "Expiry" vs. "New Taxes" vs. "Rising Costs".
Still wondering if for you, the Expiry+ Tax Decrease = Tax Increase for you (assuming you are -$250k) . places you in the 5% of families who make under $250k, but are not going to see a tax cut?
********
I believe when the actual numbers are in it's going to be a whole lot more than 5% but yeah. I don't make over $250k so won't see that hike on top of the other.
The Bush tax cuts are what saved the economy post-9/11. With the airline and financial industries taking a huge hit, his stimulus package and tax cuts helped the economy recover. Remember that during most of Bush's term unemployment was under 5%, usually around 4.5%. It wasn't until the Democrats took control of the House and Senate that gas prices spiked and unemployment started to rise.
ACtually Steph, there is nothing wrong with Snerd's math, I think he just caught you off the line, so to speak. YOu said that 5000 dollar break for each new hire, is going to be only 1% of the total cost to hire that person. Now if thats the case, then you'd be claiming that person is costing the company 500 000 dollars to be hired! So, which is it? Is that how much it costs you to hire a worker? 500 000 dollars? I dont' know too many companies who are hiring minions for 500 000 dollars a piece. If so, give me a ring, I am willing to sacrifice Karl Marx, to hit the road for that wage!
Under an Obama presidency, all Americans will be paying more. When businesses are taxed, their price of service increases. We'll all pay it one way or another. That's really spreading the tax punishment around.
SG: Actually, the USA is 'laying claim' as it were, to Canadian territory in our Arctic, claiming that some of the waters within the 200 mile Canadian limit, are no longer ours, but international water, free for the USA to exploit ... Some protection!
Snerd
Come on Snerd the mapping of the Artic is a joint adventure by the US & Canada. Where was the joint cooperation with Russia when then tried to lay claim to massive amounts of the Artic. And yes there are going to be some places where the US will claim an economic zone within Canada's terrority, only because the two countries are closer than the 200 miles. And in that case a half way point is enforced. It just proves the importance of Canada having a friend like the US that will protect from any potential agressors like Russia.
"...a company that grosses $250,000 and pays 9 employees $25,000 a year plus medical and benefits doesn’t have a lot left over to consider itself wealthy"
Did I miss something? You're claiming Obama will are tax companies on their gross income, not net?
YOu said that 5000 dollar break for each new hire, is going to be only 1% of the total cost to hire that person.
Mavic
Actually the Obama has proposed a $3000 new hire tax break and in the Socialist Republic of California the employer would still lose money. As an unemployed parts manager (thanks to democrat energy policies) the average amount to employ someone is 10% depending on the benefits the owner is willing to pay. If I wanted to hire an extra parts counterperson at $21.50 an hour I had to account for an extra $4500 in employee costs for my parts budget. And that is a lot of spark plugs to sell. In this climate of recession, along with the Obama declaring war on small businesses with his tax hike, and Obama stating he wouldn't renew the Bush tax cuts, why would a small business want to lose money by hiring a new employee?
GOF: Did I miss something? You're claiming Obama will are tax companies on their gross income, not net?
SG: I was wonderin' the say thing
Snerd
Mavic, snerd and I already settled that one. It was a typo. I used a ballpark figure of about 50k for an employee ... rough estimates sure, but giving them about a $35k salry ad the rest in health insurance and other benefits which can fluctuate per employee depending on medical history, high turnoever in employees, and so on.
I'd hit the road for that wage, too!
Did I miss something? You're claiming Obama will are tax companies on their gross income, not net?
Grumpy Old Fart
SG: I was wonderin' the say thing
Snerd
Are you saying that the Obama will tax companies on net instead of gross??? I just checked out the Obama's website, where does it say that his tax increase will only effect people with a NET income of $250,000 or more? If that's the case every business in America just has to claim that they lost money and bypass his stupid tax increase. Of course it's on GROSS INCOME not net, it's an income tax not a net profits tax.
"Of course it's on GROSS INCOME not net, it's an income tax not a net profits tax."
Please tell me you aren't that dense.
Obama told Joe the Plumber that if a business made $250,000 in revenue then their taxes would rise. That is gross receipts. That is a very, very small company. In fact is can be a part-time company. I know of a woman who teaches softball pitching 3 nights a week and has 3 employees doing the same, she has over $250k in revenue. A lot less after expenses but revenue is over the Obama limit.
revenue
n 1: the entire amount of income before any deductions are made
Is it $3k, Pete? I thought it was $5k. Man, that's even worse.